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Post by Xypher on Aug 1, 2014 10:05:05 GMT -7
Before I start, I would like to mention that Matt, who has started the other two threads in this forum has an incredibly interesting idea of what chaos is. Because of this beauty, Both of us could be right, or wrong at the same time, as Change the center of Chaos. How about I explain, and you the reader could see things from my point.
Take a look at the world around you. Be it just a glance, or a strong Meditational stare, you will notice one thing. It is filled with Change. Take the simplest things for instance? The animals all around you, the insects, the people even. All moving around and changing. Now look closer at the people. Each on of them is unique in both appearance, and mind. No two of those people are going to be EXACTLY identical in both body and mind. They may have the same genetic makeup if they are Twins, but they could vary is the smallest way which still makes them different.
Where Chaos is change, it is also the driving force of life itself. It is the reason that everything is like this, as I do not believe there is some cosmic entity staring down at EVERYTHING that is happening and choosing the path, and it's motions, so on and so forth. There may not be a grand planner at all! Just the gods and there domains, whom are all too affected by chaos. Take Chaotic Dragons for an example. One can ask them for assistance if they feel they need Chaos to help achieve there goals, but one is always to be careful with this. There may not be a grand planner at all! just the gods and there domains, whom are all too affected by chaos. A chaos dragon may help you, but not in a way you would expect. It may not even accomplish your goal and do something totally different! You could have wanted something really good to happen, but instead something really bad happens or nothing happens at all. It's like every action you do, is trying to steer you through the hurricane that is Chaos, and get to you desired location or outcome.
This brings me to my next point. The fine owner of the site and I had a very... VERY long conversation about Will Power and Chaos. He believes that these two forces are equal, and are both needed to exist. I disagree, and after much deliberation I have finally worded out all those tricky metaphors and such to create as close to the right answer as I think I can get.
Chaos does not NEED will power to exist. It just doesn't. If you rolled the proverbial one on your existence check, then you may not even be here. Chaos does not need Will Power to exist, YOU need willpower to Experience, Perceive, and Combat Chaos. You need Will Power to fight through that river that is the Chaotic mess of a world and to keep going. However like every tool, will power can break if misused or stressed. Horrifying things happen all the time when this happens. However, to preserve ones will they should enjoy the world and the Chaos as what it is. To do such is actually a very common expression known as "Stop trying to live in the Past or Future and live in the Now". Stop trying to fight against the world, or make it turn out exactly how you want it too and just experience it. Use your will to say "I'm going to take what happens today, and accept it for what it is. Something that I may be able to influence, but never control" This is how one can keep there Will power strong, because if you spend your life using it to muscle your way through then you are going to snap, as Chaos is ALWAYS going to win. Either you let it o what it wants to do, and just accept it or it will break you.
Because of this Will Power and Chaos are neither opposites, nor are they equal. Will power cannot exist without you, but Chaos can.
Now, because of how scattered I can get, I relish the though of rebuttals, as then I may refine my statements to a razor edge. If there is anything you do not agree with, or anything the does not make sense please mention it. I will make a counter statement, or clear my words. This is also the fourth time at trying to write this as I kept losing my work  |
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Post by Michelle on Aug 1, 2014 12:45:07 GMT -7
 i agree. Will is weaker then chaos on endurance but i do agree a single will cant beat chaos but a race like humans all willing to be alive and survive is a strong will that seems to have endured against chaos so far. The will of the many seems to out weigh the will of chaos atm. Hehe |
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Post by Xypher on Aug 1, 2014 13:07:20 GMT -7
Yes, but the will of many is like a dam aggainst a chaotic river. We will always have to let tye chaos bleed somehow, but we can hold it off with good planning. I chalk that up to human determination ((read stubborness)) and a will to continue, but we can only last so long |
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Post by Michelle on Aug 1, 2014 15:50:46 GMT -7
Hmm my will to survive is great so my actions are driven by will. Meaning if u succeed your will won that round. the human race is by far more then a dime and our will has conquered a hell of a lot. If we die off out will failed us.. |
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Post by Matt on Aug 2, 2014 17:17:05 GMT -7
This brings me to my next point. The fine owner of the site and I had a very... VERY long conversation about Will Power and Chaos. He believes that these two forces are equal, and are both needed to exist. I disagree, and after much deliberation I have finally worded out all those tricky metaphors and such to create as close to the right answer as I think I can get.
Chaos does not NEED will power to exist. It just doesn't. If you rolled the proverbial one on your existence check, then you may not even be here. Chaos does not need Will Power to exist, YOU need willpower to Experience, Perceive, and Combat Chaos. You need Will Power to fight through that river that is the Chaotic mess of a world and to keep going. However like every tool, will power can break if misused or stressed. Horrifying things happen all the time when this happens. However, to preserve ones will they should enjoy the world and the Chaos as what it is. To do such is actually a very common expression known as "Stop trying to live in the Past or Future and live in the Now". Stop trying to fight against the world, or make it turn out exactly how you want it too and just experience it. Use your will to say "I'm going to take what happens today, and accept it for what it is. Something that I may be able to influence, but never control" This is how one can keep there Will power strong, because if you spend your life using it to muscle your way through then you are going to snap, as Chaos is ALWAYS going to win. Either you let it o what it wants to do, and just accept it or it will break you.
Because of this Will Power and Chaos are neither opposites, nor are they equal. Will power cannot exist without you, but Chaos can. While I agree that the energy of Chaos doesn't need will power to exist, the practice of Chaos Magick seems to require it, as I see will-power and intent being very closely linked. And while it is not direct energy manipulation, and more a disorganized cluster-fuck of using loosely structural rituals that work at the time to direct focus and energy. Chaos magick does not differ from regular magic in this one simple fact; the energy sources and tools to manipulate them are all the same, just the way you may wish to perceive them changes. The majority of what you described about letting the world do its thing and living in the now is more of a Taoist viewpoint than one of Chaos Magick, in my opinion. Most Chaos Magick, or at least material on it, was produced around the time of the emergence of punk-rock. So a lot of its original practitioners typically hold that rebellious spirit. And while I'll agree that this, and everything changes as the world does, it is that energy of anarchy, that rebellion and wanting to break out of confinement and structure that makes chaos what it is, in a sense. And while you may still argue that is the people and their mindset of the time, and chaos and the elements/physics of magick in and of themselves are not limited to the human experience, that's true. But, as an actual magical practice, yes, will-power is necessary. At least, this is my current understanding of things. Views are prone to change and adapt of course. |
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Post by Xypher on Aug 2, 2014 18:43:06 GMT -7
This brings me to my next point. The fine owner of the site and I had a very... VERY long conversation about Will Power and Chaos. He believes that these two forces are equal, and are both needed to exist. I disagree, and after much deliberation I have finally worded out all those tricky metaphors and such to create as close to the right answer as I think I can get.
Chaos does not NEED will power to exist. It just doesn't. If you rolled the proverbial one on your existence check, then you may not even be here. Chaos does not need Will Power to exist, YOU need willpower to Experience, Perceive, and Combat Chaos. You need Will Power to fight through that river that is the Chaotic mess of a world and to keep going. However like every tool, will power can break if misused or stressed. Horrifying things happen all the time when this happens. However, to preserve ones will they should enjoy the world and the Chaos as what it is. To do such is actually a very common expression known as "Stop trying to live in the Past or Future and live in the Now". Stop trying to fight against the world, or make it turn out exactly how you want it too and just experience it. Use your will to say "I'm going to take what happens today, and accept it for what it is. Something that I may be able to influence, but never control" This is how one can keep there Will power strong, because if you spend your life using it to muscle your way through then you are going to snap, as Chaos is ALWAYS going to win. Either you let it o what it wants to do, and just accept it or it will break you.
Because of this Will Power and Chaos are neither opposites, nor are they equal. Will power cannot exist without you, but Chaos can. While I agree that the energy of Chaos doesn't need will power to exist, the practice of Chaos Magick seems to require it, as I see will-power and intent being very closely linked. And while it is not direct energy manipulation, and more a disorganized cluster-fuck of using loosely structural rituals that work at the time to direct focus and energy. Chaos magick does not differ from regular magic in this one simple fact; the energy sources and tools to manipulate them are all the same, just the way you may wish to perceive them changes. The majority of what you described about letting the world do its thing and living in the now is more of a Taoist viewpoint than one of Chaos Magick, in my opinion. Most Chaos Magick, or at least material on it, was produced around the time of the emergence of punk-rock. So a lot of its original practitioners typically hold that rebellious spirit. And while I'll agree that this, and everything changes as the world does, it is that energy of anarchy, that rebellion and wanting to break out of confinement and structure that makes chaos what it is, in a sense. And while you may still argue that is the people and their mindset of the time, and chaos and the elements/physics of magick in and of themselves are not limited to the human experience, that's true. But, as an actual magical practice, yes, will-power is necessary. At least, this is my current understanding of things. Views are prone to change and adapt of course. So it seems I don't quote yet understand the quote function. Ah well, all in do time.
This is not about Chaos Magic however, but more so about Chaos itself. What is CHAOS, not the magic revolved around it. The practice of Chaos Magic yes started around the punk era so of course "Rebellion" is going to go with it. Anarchy, ect ect ect, but it was all used in a sense of the proverbial "Bad" and that is still how Society Views it. I wanted to bring light to the fact that Chaos as an Element is actually incredibly important, if not the most important element, thus it's rightful place at the center of the Pentagram. The Center and point are so important in fact that they have there own name, I believe is exclusive to the dragonic path of Wicca. Akasha, which is the center point of the Circle of casting is both Spirit and Chaos, as these two things are needed for life.
The reflection of Chaos being bad in todays society is because of the bad name the Punks had who were all about rebellion, Anarchy, and so on. Being against the status quo and such.
When you seek to USE an element in Magic, an understanding of what said element is, and how it affects the world around you as well as you affecting it is important to give you a larger understanding of what will happen when you cast. As I mentioned, one NEEDS will power to perceive Chaos, and if you don't perceive it then how can you use it in your Magical Practice?
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Post by Matt on Aug 2, 2014 18:52:47 GMT -7
The point I was trying to make is that I don't disagree with your views on Chaos, they are rather similar to mine actually, perhaps your explanation was better worded though. I was just making an important distinction that I felt should be addressed when mentioning the topic of Chaos in general, since this is in a board called Chaos Magick and all.
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Post by Xypher on Aug 2, 2014 19:06:55 GMT -7
Of course, I do apologize I wasn't able to pic that out from your post. Yes I did fail to mention my actual intention didn't I? I shall try not to make that mistake again in the future
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Post by Grigori on Aug 7, 2014 13:36:52 GMT -7
To bridge I think that the now-future paradox is solved by the law of attachment and the third aspect of magic belief, faith, etc. If you practice visualization as if it were a story you read before then you're engaging in the now-future vs hope which is the futures future. Also I think that Human willpower- isn't integral to chaos. But divine willpower is according to general dogma. But again I think humans are an extension of this divine. So in my mind both points are true. Just one appears more relevant to me.
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i agree. Will is weaker then chaos on endurance but i do agree a single will cant beat chaos but a race like humans all willing to be alive and survive is a strong will that seems to have endured against chaos so far. The will of the many seems to out weigh the will of chaos atm. Hehe 